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	<title>Comments on: Density And Affordability Go Hand In Hand</title>
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		<title>By: Density And Affordability Go Hand In Hand &#124; citytank &#124; Fair Housing For Developers</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1620</link>
		<dc:creator>Density And Affordability Go Hand In Hand &#124; citytank &#124; Fair Housing For Developers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2012 13:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] more at Density And Affordability Go Hand In Hand &#124; citytank. Like this:LikeBe the first to like this [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] more at Density And Affordability Go Hand In Hand | citytank. Like this:LikeBe the first to like this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Density And Affordability Go Hand In Hand &#124; citytank &#124; Fair Housing For Developers</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1621</link>
		<dc:creator>Density And Affordability Go Hand In Hand &#124; citytank &#124; Fair Housing For Developers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2012 13:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] more at Density And Affordability Go Hand In Hand &#124; citytank. Like this:LikeBe the first to like this [...]]]></description>
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		<title>By: kgdlg</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1569</link>
		<dc:creator>kgdlg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 22:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dan, this is a very good question and one worth more exploration. Rents might be higher without the additional density, or that density might have gone to the burbs, like Redmond or North Bend, in the form or sprawl or something else outside of the City. Since our UGA is artificially drawn and legislatively enforced, what we have essentially done is create markets where they might not be otherwise. I am sure Pike/Pine would still be hot, but not sure all the institutional investment we are seeing would be deployed here in the same amount or frequency. I think what is consistently missed here is the idea that real estate finance and development is a segmented and targeted industry - supply never happens based on overall demand, for example. It is always based on a certain kind of demand. And that this demand can be pushed and played with between neighborhoods. To me, this is at the core of gentrification, and why people struggle with density so much, because there is a very real &quot;pushing out&quot; of affordable housing when new market multi-family gets built. People who used to live in Capitol Hill move to the Rainier Valley. Folks that lived in Ballard move to Shoreline. Because the new stuff is built to the demand in the luxury or high-rent segment of the market, not the affordable. Which brings us back to your statement that the only way to effectively reach that market in the numbers that we need to is through subsidy. Plain and simple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, this is a very good question and one worth more exploration. Rents might be higher without the additional density, or that density might have gone to the burbs, like Redmond or North Bend, in the form or sprawl or something else outside of the City. Since our UGA is artificially drawn and legislatively enforced, what we have essentially done is create markets where they might not be otherwise. I am sure Pike/Pine would still be hot, but not sure all the institutional investment we are seeing would be deployed here in the same amount or frequency. I think what is consistently missed here is the idea that real estate finance and development is a segmented and targeted industry &#8211; supply never happens based on overall demand, for example. It is always based on a certain kind of demand. And that this demand can be pushed and played with between neighborhoods. To me, this is at the core of gentrification, and why people struggle with density so much, because there is a very real &#8220;pushing out&#8221; of affordable housing when new market multi-family gets built. People who used to live in Capitol Hill move to the Rainier Valley. Folks that lived in Ballard move to Shoreline. Because the new stuff is built to the demand in the luxury or high-rent segment of the market, not the affordable. Which brings us back to your statement that the only way to effectively reach that market in the numbers that we need to is through subsidy. Plain and simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Wells</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1566</link>
		<dc:creator>Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 01:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seattlers are too delusionally sure of themselves and their opinions to ever accept being wrong, dead wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seattlers are too delusionally sure of themselves and their opinions to ever accept being wrong, dead wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Wells</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1564</link>
		<dc:creator>Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Apr 2012 16:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Diversity, far more than density, is the lacking element in urban/suburban development. Downtown Seattle transit, walking and bicycling are dysfunctional. Hazardous street traffic will worsen with higher density. Travel downtown is not a diverse choice. 

Economic diversity is a mix of uses that merely includes housing, high-density or not. Productive occupations downtown are mostly filled by suburbanites who have little choice to reach downtown but by driving. To construct an economically ideal diversity downtown, the more glaring lack of diversity in the suburbs must also be addressed. When fewer suburbanites chauffeur automobiles to parking spots downtown, then will market forces be less able to dictate cost of living downtown.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diversity, far more than density, is the lacking element in urban/suburban development. Downtown Seattle transit, walking and bicycling are dysfunctional. Hazardous street traffic will worsen with higher density. Travel downtown is not a diverse choice. </p>
<p>Economic diversity is a mix of uses that merely includes housing, high-density or not. Productive occupations downtown are mostly filled by suburbanites who have little choice to reach downtown but by driving. To construct an economically ideal diversity downtown, the more glaring lack of diversity in the suburbs must also be addressed. When fewer suburbanites chauffeur automobiles to parking spots downtown, then will market forces be less able to dictate cost of living downtown.</p>
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		<title>By: dan bertolet</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1563</link>
		<dc:creator>dan bertolet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We also should be asking ourselves what would have happened to prices in Seattle&#039;s high-demand neighborhoods if we had not allowed as much of that new density to be built?  I think it&#039;s safe to assume that rents would be even higher, because there would be less supply. Yes, the typical pattern in economically healthy cities is prices go up as density goes up, but that&#039;s because even with all the new density being added, demand still outpaces supply.

That said, maybe I wasn&#039;t clear enough in the post that we shouldn&#039;t let the density/supply argument obscure the fact that increasing supply alone won&#039;t deliver affordable housing to a large chunk of households, and that means we need much more support for housing subsidies of all kinds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We also should be asking ourselves what would have happened to prices in Seattle&#8217;s high-demand neighborhoods if we had not allowed as much of that new density to be built?  I think it&#8217;s safe to assume that rents would be even higher, because there would be less supply. Yes, the typical pattern in economically healthy cities is prices go up as density goes up, but that&#8217;s because even with all the new density being added, demand still outpaces supply.</p>
<p>That said, maybe I wasn&#8217;t clear enough in the post that we shouldn&#8217;t let the density/supply argument obscure the fact that increasing supply alone won&#8217;t deliver affordable housing to a large chunk of households, and that means we need much more support for housing subsidies of all kinds.</p>
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		<title>By: kgdlg</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1560</link>
		<dc:creator>kgdlg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James, I agree and you would be surprised how little research has been on on the relationship between the UGB and affordability. In addition to this, we already live in a land constrained environment (the peninsula that is Seattle) so I think we are doubly impacted by lack of land, which eventually drives up cost. Land here is very expensive due to the fact that much of what is left for development is strangely shaped, dirty or needed a lot of pre-entitlement prep. This is what underpins the entire concept of dense urban town centers. If we didn&#039;t have this regional mandate, many of these developers would opt instead for building cheaper sprawl developments far from Seattle. But what I think we have discovered is that there is a very robust higher end market for density in Seattle, particularly in certain amenity rich neighborhoods (Ballard, Cap Hill, Northgate) and this has not deterred developers, because they know they can get very high rents in these areas, so the expensive land development cost is worth it. 

One also has to remember that most private developers of rental multi-fam are not invested in a long-term hold of a property. They buy it, develop it, rent it up, stabilize it and then a few years later sell it for an enormous profit over what it cost to build it. This means that they aren&#039;t interested in long-term affordability, superior building techniques (that are very expensive or have a long pay back) and neighborhood desires. They are interested in one thing, profit and whatever it takes to get it - usually a fully leased building.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, I agree and you would be surprised how little research has been on on the relationship between the UGB and affordability. In addition to this, we already live in a land constrained environment (the peninsula that is Seattle) so I think we are doubly impacted by lack of land, which eventually drives up cost. Land here is very expensive due to the fact that much of what is left for development is strangely shaped, dirty or needed a lot of pre-entitlement prep. This is what underpins the entire concept of dense urban town centers. If we didn&#8217;t have this regional mandate, many of these developers would opt instead for building cheaper sprawl developments far from Seattle. But what I think we have discovered is that there is a very robust higher end market for density in Seattle, particularly in certain amenity rich neighborhoods (Ballard, Cap Hill, Northgate) and this has not deterred developers, because they know they can get very high rents in these areas, so the expensive land development cost is worth it. </p>
<p>One also has to remember that most private developers of rental multi-fam are not invested in a long-term hold of a property. They buy it, develop it, rent it up, stabilize it and then a few years later sell it for an enormous profit over what it cost to build it. This means that they aren&#8217;t interested in long-term affordability, superior building techniques (that are very expensive or have a long pay back) and neighborhood desires. They are interested in one thing, profit and whatever it takes to get it &#8211; usually a fully leased building.</p>
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		<title>By: james in the CD</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1559</link>
		<dc:creator>james in the CD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2012 22:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think before a discussion on Density And Affordability can really be clear - you need to bring up one item relatively unique to development in the Pacific Northwest  - in the US, OR and WA are the only two states other than Tennessee that require cities to establish urban growth boundaries (UGB).  A serious exploration of density &amp; affordability should consider this variable in formulating any sort of conclusion on said matter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think before a discussion on Density And Affordability can really be clear &#8211; you need to bring up one item relatively unique to development in the Pacific Northwest  &#8211; in the US, OR and WA are the only two states other than Tennessee that require cities to establish urban growth boundaries (UGB).  A serious exploration of density &amp; affordability should consider this variable in formulating any sort of conclusion on said matter.</p>
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		<title>By: kgdlg</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1557</link>
		<dc:creator>kgdlg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2012 16:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1557</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I fully agree with RossB in that parking minimums should be eliminated. However, in the near term, this won&#039;t result in less parking being built, which is because of banks/investors requiring parking stalls, not owners. And moreover, when private developers are successful in building less parking, I don&#039;t think it will result in unit prices going down all that much - especially when the Link is fully built to the North End. I think that difference will simply be captured by investor profit in really well located hot markets like Cap Hill. Affordable developers are already building less parking, especially downtown and close-in.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fully agree with RossB in that parking minimums should be eliminated. However, in the near term, this won&#8217;t result in less parking being built, which is because of banks/investors requiring parking stalls, not owners. And moreover, when private developers are successful in building less parking, I don&#8217;t think it will result in unit prices going down all that much &#8211; especially when the Link is fully built to the North End. I think that difference will simply be captured by investor profit in really well located hot markets like Cap Hill. Affordable developers are already building less parking, especially downtown and close-in.</p>
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		<title>By: RossB</title>
		<link>http://citytank.org/2012/03/29/density-and-affordability-go-hand-in-hand/#comment-1555</link>
		<dc:creator>RossB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2012 03:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citytank.org/?p=1076#comment-1555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You touched on it briefly, but deregulation should be part of the equation. We don&#039;t want to allow folks to build slums, but Seattle has overzealous rules on building, which pushes the cost of housing up. First to go should be the parking minimum requirements. This is, of course, in the news lately. But just doing that should lower the prices a bit. I&#039;m not sure what other regulations exist with regards to housing, but I&#039;m sure there are creative ways of greatly increasing the number of units.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You touched on it briefly, but deregulation should be part of the equation. We don&#8217;t want to allow folks to build slums, but Seattle has overzealous rules on building, which pushes the cost of housing up. First to go should be the parking minimum requirements. This is, of course, in the news lately. But just doing that should lower the prices a bit. I&#8217;m not sure what other regulations exist with regards to housing, but I&#8217;m sure there are creative ways of greatly increasing the number of units.</p>
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